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Climate or money


IF the climate is such a concern than why is our government allowing the sale of  coal to china instead of our solar pannels(of witch our government has allowed to collapse)? If the oceans are going to rise why are governments around the world allowing anybody to live beside them?  Everything that governments and big buisiness does is for the root of all evil, MONEY,MONEY,MONEY. The american indians said it right. Only when the last tree falls, Only when the rivers stop runnig, Only when the last fish is caught, Only when the last fire goes out, will they realize, "YOU CAN'T EAT MONEY"  

Fututre is always

Fututre is always unpredictable ..We can not predict future according ot our needs..Google always prefer to do changes according to climate needs..!


Google and the climate


Google will be beaten with it's own tools. Basic sience tells us that the only thing that can make water rise is displacement. Sure if you turn on the tap the water will rise in the tub but use Google earth as a tool, now look at the area covered wiyh water then zoom in on any of these glaciers and you can easily see that all the glaciers combined would not make much difference if they melted. The northern ice cape and half the antarctic is see ice that floats. Put ice in water then mark the level let it melt and the level does not change. The whole climate change issue is only about money. in the 70's we where told the planet was going to freeze. leading up to the year 2000 we where told that everything computerized was going to crash. Now it's global warming, just to make money move around again. Have a look at history. If you were to combine the displacment of every vesel(floating or sunk),bridge pilar,jetty pilar,all the land that has been made by filling in bays or low lying areas or leves beside the sea, every rock wall built to make bar crossings safer. All of these combined will have displaced far more water than the glaciers. We are constainly building bigger ships for industry and pleasure. The only other thing that can displace water is the plates under the oceans moving land mass that we can not see and when new islands are born from volcanos rising from the bottom of the oceans. All of these combined will far out way any thing that a sientist is being payed to tell us by way of the grants recieved to keep them employed(It's about the money not the sience). I wonder what the next get rich money spinner will be!        

climate change denial and the Koch Brothers

I wonder how many of these climate change denial posts are written by bought and paid for shills of the Koch Brothers?  Don't know who they are?  Just Google 'Kingpins of climate science denial'.  Also google 'Koch New Yorker Magazine'.  Also google 'Koch Greenpeace'. 

Wake up people and realize that the fossil fuel industry and in particular the Koch Brothers are responsible for paying for all of the climate science denial you hear out of conservative and libetarian yakkers like Glenn Beck and  Alex Jones and Fox News talking heads.

Thanks Raymond -- you're spot

Thanks Raymond -- you're spot on with this comment. 

Incredibly, thankfully--the deniers have finally piped down.  They haven't been back for weeks. 

Having doubts are they?  We know the money didn't run out...

 

We ARE Being Deceived--By the Energy Lobby

Should we really believe that these seemingly-thoughtful emails on the side of the deniers are composed by well-educated, thoughtful citizens?  You know--every-day folks that have taken a look at the evidence on Global Warming themselves and just can't make sense of it.  Well, not likely.  More likely is that these "ordinary folks"--former Greens among them no less!--are probably working for the energy lobby.  If Bank of America would want to do this against Glenn Greenwald:

you better believe Mobil-Exxon is willing to throw a few tens of millions toward the PR/disinformation goons who are spreading lies and causing confusion around whether global warming exists or not.  It exists, but the energy lobby and they're pawns are very effectively seeding doubt.

Show us the facts if you have them.

Show us the facts if you have them, otherwise you come across as someone who has exhausted all credibility.

We are being deceived

Norice that Ben S addresses none, I'll repeat, NONE, of the issues that Joannenova pointed out. He uses terms "more likely" "you better believe", "deniers". He is incapable of making any answer, rational or other, to the factual data joannenova presents. Ben S knows he is unable to address fact, and he knows he can never enter a discussion. He knows his only defence (offence) is make up a silly unrelated accusation, hoping to move the discussion there. Ben's vapidness shows "he has no clothes".

Merchants of Doubt links tobacco & climate denial

Read the book "Merchants of Doubt" or read blog posts about it.

How many people died of cigarette smoking while the tobacco companies denied that cigarettes cause cancer?

How many people have to die before you give up climate change denial?

Climate change deniers remind me of Maoists. No matter how many deaths Mao caused, they believed in his ideology without question.

I have long argued that the


I have long argued that the only people who doubt that cigarettes kill are either working in the killing fields we call the tobacco industry OR have been 'got at' by that same lobby.


With global warming, those with an axe to grind could have their bluffs called; we could put them up against a firing squad of climate scientists who DO have the knowledge.  We could then, in front of TV cameras, ask them exactly how much they know on the subject; we could expose their arrogance or ignorance or bias and show the world that it is only ignorance of some fairly simple facts that allows people to doubt the damage already being done.


I volunteer for one of the places on the firing squad, having a specialism in the world's weather systems (20,000 dissertation in last year at uni.)  Anyone else be on for putting some high profile CEOs etc in front of the cameras?


Of course, if the CEO refuses the challenge we could post that fact on a website so that the world could see the bluff was called.  Our website at would be one possibility - but there are others too.

CO2 is good and global warming scare is a lie

We are being deceived  

This is copied from

Perth Protest Anti Carbon Tax Rally

My speech at the Anti-tax Carbon rally, Wednesday March 23rd.

I used to be a Green. I used to think Carbon dioxide mattered. I still worry about falling fish stocks, old growth forest and erosion, but wind farms won’t help the fish, and solar cells won’t keep the top soil from blowing away. Real environmental  problems are being sidelined by fake ones.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I thought I was well informed, but I was shocked when I found out how what was going on behind the scenes. Everything you may have heard about carbon dioxide can be turned inside out.

How many excuses does it take?

  • . It’s the only” pollution” pumped onto farms to grow food. Did you know plant life goes dormant if CO2 falls too low? Farmers don’t just pump in an extra 5 or 10% either, they ramp up the concentration 4 or 5 fold in greenhouses. Did the government scientists forget to mention that?
  • Australia is the largest exporter of coal in the world. But did they say that more coal than we do?
  • The famous — expanded to 20 meters square — turned out to show the opposite of what he claimed. Temperatures drive carbon and lead it by 800 years. Worse,iIt was well known, and not contested two years before he made his movie.
  • Global warming stopped, and none of the models predicted that.
  • The endless droughts — ended.
  • All that CO2 and Global storms hit their 
  • And you have to wonder: nearlyin the US are too close to artificial heat sources. 90%. How much do the climate science team care about the science?
  • 75% of thermometers used in the 1980’s have . All that money, and less instruments to measure with…
  • They adjust the data — sometimes 50 years after it was recorded. Think about that. The 
  •  looked and couldn’t find most of the  that our planet is supposed to be storing.
  • 6000 boreholes tell us the world was , and even warmer again 5000 years ago. None of the models can explain that.
  • all the models predict a hot spot, and 
  • don’t think we need a carbon tax. That includes 9000 phd’s. There’s a grassroots revolt going on out there. This was done by volunteers, and done twice. There’s never been another petition like it in science, ever. Did the media forget to tell you that too?
  • For every dollar paid to a skeptic, big government paid .

 

Peter, your information


Peter, your information reminds me of the guy you meet at a party who spouts statistics to impress people on trendy issues.  90% of statistics are made up on the spot!  I suspect you are the kind of person who, if asked to load a six shooter with 3 bullets, and only pull the trigger if you are absolutely CERTAIN that global warming is one big fiction, would actually put it to your head and pull the trigger.  But the last thought that would pass your little head would be: 'I now wish I was not so full of b***sh*t.'  You probably smoke too, justifying the safety of cigarettes with the same kind of wishful 'logic'.


Thank heavens you are not running for President;  and I certainly would not want you babysitting my kids.


 

This is high-quality

This is high-quality disinformation.  Someone's sponsoring this sort of "grass roots" smear campaigns.  Follow the money!

This is high-quality

This is high-quality disinformation.  Someone's sponsoring this sort of "grass roots" smear campaigns.  Follow the money!

Ben S. you are a freaking

Ben S. you are a freaking imbecile.

Reading between the lines

This is an important story that until now has been missed, and was released matter-of-factly by Google. It does a good job of reading between the lines: the war on science is harming the body politic, and especially the war on climate science.

Good for Google in trying to quietly restore rational communication in the face of a ferocious resurgence of America's anti-intellectual demons.

Flashy headlines and twisting stories

I see all this discussion on the solveclimate.com article is about the Google Science Communicaiton Fellows, which was announced over a month ago on the google blog ().

After reading the initial Google Blog post, it appears that the SolveClimate article has put a political twist to the Google Fellows program which seems to not be about "attacking skeptics" at all.  The google blog describes the fellows program as simply"  "an effort to foster a more open, transparent and accessible scientific dialogue". In fact, the focus of the program generally is not characterized as being about "climate change" per se, but rather science generally-- the post says: "Initially, we’ll focus on communicating the science on climate change."   Seems to me that the SolveClimate article twisted the story a bit in choosing an attention grabbing headline about attacking skeptics.

Anyway.. what is interesting to me in all this is that this comment thread shows the power of the media to create hype around a story that is not the real story at all.  I don't think Google tools will be able to help with this communicaiton challenge, that is those around the social/political drive to warp a news story with a flashy headline to get attention, which was clearly done here.   Unfortunately, this is among the biggest  challenges around communicating climate change, and as with any potilically hot topic. 

Google Takes on Climate Change Skeptics

There are very few, "climate change" sceptics as such, because anyone with a grain of common sense knows that climate changes naturally.

Those of us who consider ourselves sceptics, are sceptical of the science, its predictions and the numbers it proffers.

With so many different and varied figures and predictions to consider, not even the most informed climate scientist has been able to agree on them.

As for the IPCC, that's another ball-game and with luck, it won't be around for much longer to confuse the issue.

To much complexity mean models are inaccurate

"The vast majority of people don't know and understand the details of climate science," he said. "The science of climate change spans 20 to 30 disciplines and sub-disciplines, at least ... It is an enormous amount of information, and distilling it is a bit of a challenge."  Higgins of AMS

How can a model which encompasses as many as 30 disciplines have any chance of being accurate?  Climate forecasting has so many variables that any forecasts are meaningless.  Simple models work.   Complex models fail because their are too many opportunities for mistakes to be made.

Peter think of a car. That

Peter think of a car. That might help you understand how intelligent human beings can accomplish things that are extremely complex. It has much more than 30 moving parts. Not to mention a space shuttle, which must rely on many inter-disciplinary models as it gets engineered before it ever takes flight.

If you take away the utility of modeling with a single anti-intellectual brush stroke as you have, you take away a tool that is already fundamental to your way of life. Climate scientists are using a well-developed tool that has proven its utility and efficacy time and time again.

It's not like modellers have not anticipated your concern with complexity. That's the whole point of modeling -- understanding the complex interaction of a large number of factors that a single human mind like your own cannot grasp by itself.

As Higgins says, it is a challenge. Though you are not, thank goodness there are people who are up for meeting it head on. They deserve your admiration and respect.

Is it really AGW we should be worried about?

Based on the temperature history over the past 400000 yrs, should we really be focusing on global warming? Looks to me we are on the verge of taking an 8C temperature drop in the very near (geologically speaking) future.

 

 

Temperature

Studies of the Milankovitch

Studies of the Milankovitch cycles (which are understood as the primary drivers of the glacial/interglacial changes) indicate that they are not expected to cause a glacial period for another 20-50,000 years, due to the current minimum in the eccentricity of Earth's orbit and comparisons with similar interglacial periods seen in the ice core records. See (2002), and (2004).

Milankovitch cycle


I agree with Alcheson, 50,000 years doesn't fit well with the graph at all. Twenty years for the low end I could agree with but not 50,000.


I prefer to think of the graph another way. Assume the graph is about automobiles and how many miles a person gets to drive them before they are useless.  The x axis is miles driven. When a peak starts rising from the "interglacial" its kinda like a warning light that says miles left is getting low. At the end of the peak when it starts dropping off again the car is dead. Therefore, this graph would show that this person has bought 5 new cars so far and is currently in the warning light phase of his fifth car. So, the owner of this car decides to sell this current car to a used car salesman before it dies.


Now lets assume you are buying a car from a used car salesman. He offers to sell you this used car, He shows you the graph and says he had a mechanic look it over and based on some calculations he esitimates it still has 40% of the miles left, would you believe hm?

Really? 50,000 years?


Really? 50,000 years? Interglacial peak widths aren't even 50000 years, that is almsot half of a whole cycle. Based on some calculation rather than the data I am to believe we are still in a glaciattion state? By peak width alone, it would suggest that all current interglacial is imminent unless for some reason history isn't going to repeat itself this time.

As I said, you have to look

As I said, you have to look at glacial cycles that are similar to ours; the current interglacial is unique within the Vostok core for its long, relatively stable plateau.    But in the EPICA-C record, which goes back further, includes a similar interglacial that occurred under similar orbital conditions.  See the paper by (2004) that I linked earlier:

Some authors suggest that, because the orbital parameters (low eccentricity and consequently weak precessional forcing) are similar to those of the present and the next tens of thousands of years, MIS 11 may be the best analogue for present and future climate without human intervention.


Climate Science Links

BTW -- on the home page is a block that contains 24 climate science links for curious readers who want to know what various agencies of the US government (including USDA, DOE, the Navy, NASA and the National Science Foundation), as well as international bodies, and academic institutions and NGOs, think about climate change, based on the peer-reviewed empirical evidence.

$75 Billion incentives to tow the Party Line

The  over $75 BILLION spent to promote AGW climate science which the US taxpayer has been soaked for, kinda' makes the $19 million Exxon gave CEI (over a period of six years) to promote its 'agenda'.. look a little more like a drop in the bucket, than a ' well-funded disinformation machine'..dontcha' think ?

Can you say 'Three Thousand, Nine Hundred and Fourty Seven to ONE ??

3,947 to 1 Isn't that the

3,947 to 1

Isn't that the ratio of climate scientists who understand that climate change is man-made, to those who deny it?

 

You're bang on !

Pythagoras said: ' Isn't that the ratio of climate scientists who understand that climate change is man-made, to those who deny it?'  Thanks for that comment, Pythagoras. You've reminded us once again that plenty of money can buy allegiance, but rarely delivers objective science.

Maybe, just maybe, the

Maybe, just maybe, the thousands of scientists working everyday are doing actual science and not scheming to annoy the right-wingers and anarchists.  Maybe liberals and the scientific community haven't been scheming for the last 20 years a way to bilk the world with a carbon tax.  lol - i love right-wingers

By the way, it's likely that

By the way, it's likely that alot of the deniers in here are working for PR firms somehow connected to the utility or oil industry.  For those of you who might have heard, Anonymous revealed proof of that when they attacked HBGary's website a few months ago. It's only a matter of time before someone reveals proof that many of deniers are paid energy lobby thugs. 

Charts and Graphs

When I looked at this blog yesterday (Saturday) there were no charts and graphs, but there are some now. It looks as if the AGW supporters have been prodded into action with the intensity of the scientific sceptical views expressed here.

I welcome this, as at last some of the warmists are responding not with the usual parrotted responses, ad hominem attacks, and quotes from authority figures, but are resorting to a semblance of scientific discourse.

I have replied with a few charts of my own, on ocean cooling and growing scepticism towards the AGW case.


Hi Edward, I've been here for

Hi Edward, I've been here for the past two days, posting links to charts and literature references.  I'm used to discussing on Newsvine (which uses similar software but does not allow posting images), so I initially linked to the charts rather than displaying them. 

Warmistas stung into action

When I looked at this blog yesterday (Saturday) there were no charts and graphs, but there are some now. It looks as if the AGW supporters have been prodded into action with the intensity of the scientific sceptical views expressed here.

I welcome this, as at last some of the warmists are responding not with the usual parrotted responses, ad hominem attacks, and quotes from authority figures, but are resorting to a semblance of scientific discourse.

I have replied with a few charts of my own, on ocean cooling and growing scepticism towards the AGW case.

Warmistas stung into action

When I looked at this blog yesterday (Saturday) there were no charts and graphs, but there are some now. It looks as if the AGW supporters have been prodded into action with the intensity of the scientific sceptical views expressed here.

I welcome this, as at last some of the warmists are responding not with the usual parrotted responses, ad hominem attacks, and quotes from authority figures, but are resorting to a semblance of scientific discourse.

I have replied with a few charts of my own, on ocean cooling and growing scepticism towards the AGW case.

Great Plan Google


Please communicate the science, start with the scientific method, open source your data and methodology and then persuade all you want.Otherwise your fellows attempts to communicate anything at all will just be more noise and googles credibility will spiral.The message has been heard worldwide from IPCC team Climatology and you really do not want to go there again, the art of defending the indefensible being extremely deadly to how you are precieved by others. However I am very receptive to genuine science and would be most greatful if the google fellows would produce some. Especially some that is reproducable, maybe your money would be well spent if your fellows who seem a very clever bunch, would first review and math check the science they intend to communicate. Anyhow great plan google lots a luck with that propaganda effort and goodbye, I will use Bing for now.

I just watched a show about

I just watched a show about the planets and listened to someone, supposedly educated, that claimed that the reason that Venus is 30 degrees warmer than the Earth is, yes, you guessed it "Global Warming." His assertion was that even though Venus was approximately the same mass, density, and size, that due to runaway "Global Warming" Venus was 30 degrees warmer than the earth. Am I to assume that the fact that Venus is about 1/3 of the distance closer to the Sun has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that Venus is warmer than the Earth. And the AGW Ministers claim they do not spread falsehoods! Oh, that's right, I forgot, the AGW Ministers have told me the Sun has nothing to do with global warming! I need re-educated - GOOGLE is going to re-educate me!

Typo

Sorry, typo - 30 degrees should be 430 degrees. For some reason my cut-n-paste didn't work. It is correct in my MSWord doc. (and that is Celsius for the nit pickers.)

That Venus has a very strong

That Venus has a very strong greenhouse effect is not something that comes from the "AGW ministers".  Here, read about the .

Google has been seen to be

Google has been seen to be biased in the past. It is a huge financial corporation with a huge amount (through directors and associates) invested in the bet on an AGW panic. This means, if they do not like an answer then they will censor it. Has this happened before, sure, just google it. Now they are even more out in the open.

 

I will change search engines, avoid Android and not believe everything they say. Censorship is evil. Google is just "adjusting" the data to influence our thoughts.

How did Google come to get

How did Google come to get involved? Is it just something they wanted to do? I am seeing other unlikely people stepping into this as well, so I am wondering who is behind it.

It could be a good thing if things get done.

Reggie

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look who's blogging...

Never seen a blog response this long on solveclimate.com

And never so many climate change nay sayers either...

You climate sceptics must be shivering already about Google's initiative.

 

By the way, empirical science is not based on proofs, but on experiment and observation. So, don't ask any scientists to prove their theories. If you are a skeptic, you would have to point out any shortcomings in the measurement techniques, for example. But ouch - isn't that the job scientists are doing anyways?

Not true

The null hypothesis is that the current temperature falls within natural variation.  Someone proposing a new theory such as AGW must DISPROVE the null not the other way around.

Fanatics

The good news is that every news article and blog you review regarding the Anthropogenic Global Warming SCAM that allows comments always has the same pattern. Dozens if not hundreds of independent thinkers post credible objections/concerns and scientific proof for their beliefs, and then you have one or two AGW fanatics (sailrick?) who post comment after comment repeating the same discredited propaganda over and over. The are isolated and very alone in their devotion to this false religion and no proof will ever shake their belief. The whole world is turning away from this costly and dangerous SCAM and ethical scientists everywhere are beginning to take back the peer review process and demand accountability for all the lies and data manipulation. Belief in AGW will someday soon be recognized as a mental illness. Those who are not simply trying to gain money and power are in love with themselves and the idea that they are battling 'evil' people to 'save the world'. They think they are in a Star Wars episode and they are the good guys!!! LOL

Delusional!!! (see also...Superiority Complex, Superman Complex...)

Nothing changes

Try going to scientific blogs where people have the time to debunk your so called theories not opinion websites where any old blogger can write unsubstantiated claims. I think I will listen to the scientists not Fox media.

 Sorry but considering how many countries and scientific organizations believe in climate change we are definitely not alone.

Sailrick has put forward proof that sceptics use discredited, misleading information, I noticed no one has proven his statements wrong or even replied. Since it is discredited propaganda it should be easy but we wait and wait.

And when you start going on about false religion, mental illness, fanatics and general name calling it just proves to me that you have no proof.


Consensus leads to Phlogiston and Geocentrism


Anonymous said:


' Sorry but considering how many countries and scientific organizations believe in climate change we are definitely not alone.'


 


In May 2010, an open letter endorsed by the membership of the National Academy of Sciences,  was sent to the Guardian in the UK claiming to represent the position of the 'membership', in regards to indescretions by fellow scientists (Climategate), and to reaffirm the 'consensus view' of the membership, in regards to Anthropogenic Climate Change.


FACT: 12.1% of the membership were Signatories to that letter


FACT: The top 7 fields of knowledge represented by those signatories, were fields unrelated to climate science. Geology and Geophysics came in 8th and 9th.


FACT: Only 26.7% of the signatories can be related, by kind criteria, to climate science. 87.9% of members didn't even sign the letter.


 


FACT: Not a single scientific organization has directly polled its entire membership in order to assemble a public position paper in regards to Anthropogenic Global Warming. By and large, they are assembled by a tiny number of elitists within each organization.


 


 

Opposition to overt stance by Google on AGW

Take at look at this open letter to Google on the recent AGW developments and the lively, open debate it has engendered.


It very much sums up the attitude and the scale of the response to this attempt by Google to force their opinion on the Google Internet world by overt spin doctoring.

 

Google & climate skeptics

From the article:  "People who are opposed to regulation ... [are] not trying to prove that climate change [science] is wrong. They're trying to prove that there is an argument going on," he said. "They're just trying to create noise.

Well now...  the skeptics should not have to DISPROVE the CO2-caused climate catastrophe theory; those who hold to the theory should have to PROVE it! -- before asking us to invest 100s of billions to prevent it.  Isn't that what the argument is about?  Yes, indeed:  there is an argument going on.  And there should be.

If you're really looking for spin ...

"It was hard to choose just 21 fellows from such an impressive pool of scientists; ultimately, we chose scientists who had the strongest potential to become excellent communicators. That meant previous training in science communication; research in topics related to understanding or managing climate change; and experience experimenting with innovative approaches or technology tools for science communication."

Really? Sounds like they are more interested in spin doctors vs. scientists.  If you are looking for experts in communication wouldn't it make sense to hire one of those firms that made Madison avenue famous? Why pick amatuers?

 

 

A list of 'Yes men' (and women)

Not a single Physics or Chemistry department is represented! How can this be, that disciplines with the best understanding of natural physical processes are excluded?

And, the list of fellows, that we are supposed to be so impressed with, shows names and institutions, but not research disciplines (hardly an example of better communication, Google!) - if you want to appeal to authority, at least show some!

Google should use its resources to promote better science, not better communication of a 'science' that is being increasingly scrutinised and shown to be flawed by experienced scientists and the public alike.

This initiative will be seen as partisan, and politically and financially motivated, by the growing numbers aware of the scientific counter-evidence in this heated debate. It is certainly not about science. Get a grip Google!

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